A "democratic" wiki

[Alysia]

I received a lengthy private message on another site by someone who was “notably displeased” with the administration here and wanted to have a “quiet discourse” about this issue rather than discuss it here.   

However, I’m not inclined to repeat myself (yet again) in a private message that will undoubtably be forwarded and as my response is very relevant to the ongoing discussion, it’s posted here.


The Wiki Itself Is Democratic
First, please understand this:

The RhydinWiki itself is truly open, democratic, and collaborative, encompassing the entire spectrum of Rhydin-related roleplaying. There are no restrictions on who may contribute, as long as they register.  The reasoning for requiring contributors to engage in the simple act of registering at the site has already been explained ad nauseam.


Site Administration Is Not Democratic
This has also already been explained:

The administration of this Wiki is not democratic.   

We will accept suggestions and comments and we will consider them; however, the mere act of a member voicing a suggestion and refusing to take “Sorry, No” for an answer does not mean their suggestion will (or should) become the Way Things Are Done.  Final administrative decisions could be opened up to include additional people when they've proved they understand the goal and vision of this site.   

The private message I received suggested The Admin and I have been heavy handed.  You know what? The expectation that a site change its policies based on the criticism of a vocal minority is, in and of itself, heavy handed and kind of unreasonable.


Well, Wikipedia Itself Is Democratic,  Right?
This private message drew analogies to Wikipedia, as a “democracy in action,” apparently holding Wikipedia out as an ideal “democratic” example to which this Rhydin Wiki should aspire.   Fine.  Let’s examine that further.

Wikipedia indeed relies on “democratic” contributions (and so do we). 

However, the second paragraph of Wikipedia's policies begins with this: "While we strive to build consensus, Wikipedia is not a democracy".

Additionally, Wikipedia is definitely not administered by its teeming horde of contributors, with every major decision put to a vote.  Rather, it is operated by the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a group of paid employees, volunteer technical contractors, an expert advisory board, and a Board of Trustees which develops, coordinates, and puts into play Wikipedia’s (and related projects) policies and practices. 

Wikipedia’s guidelines aren’t developed on a whim, and neither are ours.  In fact, most of our policies are strongly based, if not nearly word-for-word, on Wikipedia’s policies.


No Ghost Writing on Personal Articles
As long as I am the site owner, I have legal responsibilities, and I will administer the site with an eye to protecting myself legally, particularly given the penchant of some members of various Rhydin roleplaying communities to raise the threat of legal action involving copyright, licensing, plagiarism, and improper (or absent) acknowledgment.

Ghost Writing will not be allowed for personal articles.  I have no intention of allowing one or two people to be excepted from this just because they have friends who trust them to do so or a reputation in the community.  This site is neutral.  I'm not playing favorites. What applies to one, applies to all.

If you want to "ghost write" or otherwise publish someone else's non personal article for the Rhydin Wiki, feel free to do so.  Just make sure you give credit to the original author(s) and include the appropriate CC license.


Anonymous Contributions
If anonymous articles are allowed, they will be displayed with the contributor’s IP address.  However, anonymous users cannot start new pages, edit semi-protected pages, rename pages, or upload images. 

That's not me being heavy handed.  That’s the way MediaWiki works.

Unfortunately, IP addresses are less private than registered user names.  People are smart enough to figure out that several articles originating from the same IP address are, with very few exceptions, probably made by the same person or by the people in the same household.  As an anonymous user, the privacy of your identity is not assured.

I expect the majority of contributors to the RhydinWiki would rather be identified by a pseudonym of their choice rather than their IP address. 

However, in the interest of democracy, I’ll put this to a poll.  If 75% of the members here want anonymous contributions instead of the requirement to register, understanding that their  articles will now be tagged with an IP address instead a username and they won’t be able to add new pages or upload images, I’ll go ahead and enable that.


Flounces
This private message noted that the author didn’t want to see “another wonderful idea die off.”  Rest assured I have no intention of flouncing off into the sunset and taking the wiki with me just because a couple of people don't like the way I do things.  I’m not particularly worried about this site “stagnating;” as I have never envisioned this as a resource to be developed overnight. 

I am amazed that people have written more bitching about site administration than actually writing stuff for the Wiki.   

This is not addressed to anyone in particular, but it needs to be said: If you truly believe that things are being handled poorly by the admins at this site, you are welcome to commit your own time, resources and knowledge to developing your own site.  As a matter of fact, I encourage you to do so. 

I truly believe think competition is natural, healthy, and encourages everyone to do their best.   If you think you can do a better job, go for it, my friends.

[SLWatson]

I received a lengthy private message on another site by someone who was “notably displeased” with the administration here and wanted to have a “quiet discourse” about this issue rather than discuss it here.

However, I’m not inclined to repeat myself (yet again) in a private message that will undoubtably be forwarded and as my response is very relevant to the ongoing discussion, it’s posted here.

I suppose that's fair enough.  Very well, we'll have it all be an open discussion, then.  I thought to conduct it quietly for the sake of presenting a relatively united front in this project; if I've erred in that judgement, I'm gladly willing to speak in the open.

The Wiki Itself Is Democratic
First, please understand this:

The RhydinWiki itself is truly open, democratic, and collaborative, encompassing the entire spectrum of Rhydin-related roleplaying. There are no restrictions on who may contribute, as long as they register.  The reasoning for requiring contributors to engage in the simple act of registering at the site has already been explained ad nauseam.

The 'accountability' factor?  Truth be told, accountability isn't improved all that much by having a username attached to things. I honestly don't see all that many people planning on causing problems.  Unhappy though I was, with some of the things that Rob pulled, we all did manage to have civil discourses without him ever having to say a word.  Consensus took place on the comments threads, just like they're supposed to, and it was civil from start to finish.  I'd like to see the same thing happen here, though, of course, that will only happen with time and more contributors.

Site Administration Is Not Democratic
This has also already been explained:

The administration of this Wiki is not democratic.   

We will accept suggestions and comments and we will consider them; however, the mere act of a member voicing a suggestion and refusing to take “Sorry, No” for an answer does not mean their suggestion will (or should) become the Way Things Are Done.  Final administrative decisions could be opened up to include additional people when they've proved they understand the goal and vision of this site.

I'm sure you've said it before, but please, feel free to clarify it for me.  What exactly is the "goal and vision"?  See, for my part, my goal is to have a really big, cross-site wiki for all of Rhy'Din to contribute to, anonymously or not.  My ultimate goal was stated when I spoke about it on ME before -- to have it run by the Rhy'Din site-owners/admins, to have it open to all members, to have everything as nicely categorized as possible.  I'm sure that we can all come to a consensus on this, so let's talk it out until we do.

The private message I received suggested The Admin and I have been heavy handed.  You know what? The expectation that a site change its policies based on the criticism of a vocal minority is, in and of itself, heavy handed and kind of unreasonable.

You have what, eleven members here?  I don't think two out of eleven really is that small a minority.  I will venture to say, I have spoken to two more who hesitate to contribute here and join because of the site-rules thus far.  Certainly, of course, it's your site.  You've made it abundantly clear above.  You can tell us all to piss off at any point.  But, generally speaking, it's not entirely wise to say that two out of eleven (perhaps three) plus at least two more potential contributors are that small a minority on thus far, this small a site.

Well, Wikipedia Itself Is Democratic,  Right?
This private message drew analogies to Wikipedia, as a “democracy in action,” apparently holding Wikipedia out as an ideal “democratic” example to which this Rhydin Wiki should aspire.   Fine.  Let’s examine that further.

Wikipedia indeed relies on “democratic” contributions (and so do we). 

However, the second paragraph of Wikipedia's policies begins with this: "While we strive to build consensus, Wikipedia is not a democracy".

Additionally, Wikipedia is definitely not administered by its teeming horde of contributors, with every major decision put to a vote.  Rather, it is operated by the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a group of paid employees, volunteer technical contractors, an expert advisory board, and a Board of Trustees which develops, coordinates, and puts into play Wikipedia’s (and related projects) policies and practices. 

Wikipedia has so many admins, that it's not even funny.  In fact, it's their practice to admin regular contributors and editors who have proven reliable.  In as such, it's not entirely unaccurate to say that it's administrated exactly by the users.  They often downplay the 'admin' title, in fact, citing that it's "no big deal".  Deletions, additions, even edits and statuses are put to a vote (that was what killed Rhy'Din's page on Wikipedia) in fact.  They also draw their higher bureaucrats from the user pool.  In as such, it is actually very democratic.  Even if they don't choose to use those words.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators

Wikipedia’s guidelines aren’t developed on a whim, and neither are ours.  In fact, most of our policies are strongly based, if not nearly word-for-word, on Wikipedia’s policies.

Good!  It might help to clarify those, then, so that misunderstandings won't crop up.  Certainly, though, I would hope that any wiki policies would, for the most part, be based on what best suits the users. 

No Ghost Writing on Personal Articles
As long as I am the site owner, I have legal responsibilities, and I will administer the site with an eye to protecting myself legally, particularly given the penchant of some members of various Rhydin roleplaying communities to raise the threat of legal action involving copyright, licensing, plagiarism, and improper (or absent) acknowledgment.

I'm sorry, did I offend you with that?  I was disturbed by some of Rob's practices.  I think I had a good reason to be, though, of course, you weren't privvy to our private communications which were where many of my concerns came from.    He didn't have a single notice anywhere on his site about anything.  And while this will likely give rise to correlations being drawn to "you use a celebrity portrait as an avatar!" I'll certainly point out that I haven't done so on this wiki.

I'm fairly sure that you can't be held responsible for providing a service to people, for how they choose to use said service.  You'd have to check the law on this; I'm sure I know it, but since you have made it clear that you don't care for legalities being bandied about, it's best if I leave you to research this yourself.

Ghost Writing will not be allowed for personal articles.  I have no intention of allowing one or two people to be excepted from this just because they have friends who trust them to do so or a reputation in the community.  This site is neutral.  I'm not playing favorites. What applies to one, applies to all.

Perhaps a clarification about what *exactly* a personal article is.  A character article?  A location article?  I'm sure you've done this, maybe I just missed it.  I'll endeavor to look for it as soon as I can.

If you want to "ghost write" or otherwise publish someone else's non personal article for the Rhydin Wiki, feel free to do so.  Just make sure you give credit to the original author(s) and include the appropriate CC license.

See above.

Anonymous Contributions
If anonymous articles are allowed, they will be displayed with the contributor’s IP address.  However, anonymous users cannot start new pages, edit semi-protected pages, rename pages, or upload images. 

That's not me being heavy handed.  That’s the way MediaWiki works.

I was a fan of PMWiki for reasons like this, but that's understandable.  Software limitations are a pain.  But I'll do some research; maybe there's a cookbook recipe that can do something about that.  At least for the page-creation part.  Certainly, though, someone can lobby a registered user to create the page, then they can go add the content themselves.

Unfortunately, IP addresses are less private than registered user names.  People are smart enough to figure out that several articles originating from the same IP address are, with very few exceptions, probably made by the same person or by the people in the same household.  As an anonymous user, the privacy of your identity is not assured.

Well, considering that most places have rotating, dynamic IPs, and most users wouldn't bother looking to see where it originates from, it's not really that big a privacy issue.  Aside from a handful of us, unless you know where someone lives, you won't likely know exactly who did it.  But that's really not even such the problem; a lot of it is, "I don't want to sign up for the forums.  I just want to be able to add and/or edit the wiki stuff."

I expect the majority of contributors to the RhydinWiki would rather be identified by a pseudonym of their choice rather than their IP address.

Maybe.  But the option isn't a bad one to have, if they don't.

However, in the interest of democracy, I’ll put this to a poll.  If 75% of the members here want anonymous contributions instead of the requirement to register, understanding that their  articles will now be tagged with an IP address instead a username and they won’t be able to add new pages or upload images, I’ll go ahead and enable that.

Looking forward to seeing the consensus on this.

Flounces
This private message noted that the author didn’t want to see “another wonderful idea die off.”  Rest assured I have no intention of flouncing off into the sunset and taking the wiki with me just because a couple of people don't like the way I do things.

I much prefer to discuss things.  Believe it or not.  I just really, firmly believe that it shouldn't just be the way you do things... but the way *we* do things.  Again, the democracy in action idea.  I believed you when you said you wouldn't just delete the site because of disagreements.  Else, I probably would have never bothered signing up.  I certainly wouldn't have felt confident enough in your ability to discuss disagreements to actually bring said disagreements up to you.  While that might not seem like a compliment, it is.

I’m not particularly worried about this site “stagnating;” as I have never envisioned this as a resource to be developed overnight.

Of course not.  Good things take time.  Which is why it's best to deal with issues now, in the beginning, than it is later on.

I am amazed that people have written more bitching about site administration than actually writing stuff for the Wiki.

I dunno, I've created some decent pages.  Real life has gotten in the way of writing more of them for the moment.  I would firmly say I've certainly done more on the wiki than I've been "bitching about the site administration" -- I've spoken only once of it, in a "I'm a little worried about this" way, and then the PM to you.  ::shrugs::  I don't really think that's spending a lot of time bitching, and I'm pretty sure I was polite about it in all cases.   

This is not addressed to anyone in particular, but it needs to be said: If you truly believe that things are being handled poorly by the admins at this site, you are welcome to commit your own time, resources and knowledge to developing your own site.  As a matter of fact, I encourage you to do so.

I truly believe think competition is natural, healthy, and encourages everyone to do their best.   If you think you can do a better job, go for it, my friends.

I'm certain I could.  But, again, I have this terribly flaw of being idealistic and wanting *one* wiki, run democratically, loved on and built and created.  I don't want to make a new one.  I want this one to work out, for everyone, by everyone.  I wish that I could have discussed this vision with you further before it was put into action (I'm still grateful it was, mind you, and have stated it, linked it, pimped it and loved on it repeatedly) but I was sick.  Nonetheless, I still feel the vision's a good one.  I always have.  I think, somewhere, you do too -- else, you wouldn't have done this.

So, let's see if we can make this one work out.  It's never that I can't set something up -- I have and can and would even, if it came to it.

I just don't want it to come to that.  I want it to work out here.  All of us, together.

Does that help to clarify my position any better?

[Alysia]

You position is - and has been - abundantly clear.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Steff.

[SLWatson]

We may have to.  I'd hope we could at least discuss what we're disagreeing for certain on, and what's just a matter of potential miscommunication.  But I'll leave that up to you, as my position is clear to us both.  I'm less certain of yours, hence the PM and this thread, and want to know more about it.  (Bear with me, it's been a very bad week.)

On a related note, though, here's what I found out about MediaWiki (the sourcecode trips me out!  I love it!):

Code:

// Implicit group for all visitors
$wgGroupPermissions['*'    ]['createaccount']   = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['*'    ]['read']            = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['*'    ]['edit']            = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['*'    ]['createpage']      = true;
$wgGroupPermissions['*'    ]['createtalk']      = true;

So, anonymous users actually can create pages, provided the value is 'true'.  You can also add variables in that would give them more permissions, depending on whether or not you'd think they would be needed.  Though, for now, just the create page should be enough.

Now, I'm pretty sure the default settings are that anonymous users can create pages.  At least, from my reading.  The only way they couldn't is if it was changed to a 'false' variable.

[admin]

SLWatson, I am pleased you are reading up about Mediawiki.   I do hope you take the time to read through our own documentation and guidelines here as carefully as you do the MWdocs!

If you are having trouble finding certain information, or have specific questions about things you cannot understand about the wiki, its content, or the way the site is being run, this is certainly the place to ask!  Hopefully we can get more solid questions and people submitting more wiki articles about Rhydin than obsessing over semantics and worrying about being oppressed by having to register to submit their info to a website and discuss changes other people want to make to their articles on a forum.

To touch on some questions raised here:

There was some sort of question about the accountability factor.  Accountability is, in my own practical experience with RP community wikis, improved by having a username attached to things.  In my experience, there have been serious issues with accountability when users are not held accountable for what they submit to a RP community wiki.   This isn't some arbitrary idea we dreamed up just to make people jump through hoops and hold them back from submitting their stuff here (for some reason I'm getting this impression that some visitors think this is the case), this is based on personal experience with what goes wrong.  If you have personal and practical experience with configuring and running RP community mediawiki sites with anonymous submissions and want to share some URLs and documentation, I'll welcome them, but until then I make my recommendations to Alysia on my own experience.

There was a question about whether two users out out of eleven is a small minority.  I am not a mathematician, but two out of eleven is (at my best estimate) a minority. Sorry...

There was a question about what exactly a Personal article is.  This is detailed at the beginning of the Moderation Guide in the wiki, if you have any questions about that, we will be happy to answer them. 

There was a question about the goal and vision of rhydinwiki.com. This is detailed on the wiki front page as again in that Moderation Guide Clarification post on these forums.  In pertinent part:   The purpose of this site is to chronicle roleplaying in Rhydin with verifiable material.   This is not a place to copy everything about Rhydin by whatever means necessary.   Also, this is not a site set up to be "run" by "Rhy'Din site-owners" though I think Alysia made that pretty clear.   This is an independent, neutral site.  If for some reason visitors are still assuming they are or should be running this site instead of Alysia, who set it up, planned it, implemented it, and maintains it, when OOC she doesn't know these visitors from Adam, we seriously need to talk. 

There was a question (sort of) about what wiki policies were based on. They have been detailed in the post mentioned above, as well as in the Style and Moderation Guidelines on the wiki.   They are based on what, in our experience, will help create a readable, organized wiki full of verifiable facts about roleplaying in Rhydin. 

If these are things which you are having difficulty understanding we will be happy to explain them and how we came to our decisions   If you don't agree with those decisions and the reasoning behind them, that's fine, and you can even explain why, but as Alysia has said, there are some times and places to agree to disagree, and this may be one of them.

[Alysia]

First, statements like "I'm sorry, did I offend you with that?" are getting a little personal.  The smarm is uncalled for, so watch your tone. 

I've been advised by two attorneys on this.  Given that you're "fairly sure" about what my legal responsibilities are, I can only guess that the law must be different where you live.

The anonymous/registered user poll will run until November 21.  Complaining until then will not change the Evil Non-Democratic Tyrant Admin Minds.  If, at the time the polls ends, 75% of this site's members here decide that they want their IP address plastered all over the internet along with the inability to add new pages, we'll enable anonymous users.  I may even consider removing their add limitations.  However, as it currently stands, the site continues to grow and 3/12 is not 75%.  The RhydinWiki remains open to Rhydin-related contributions from all registered users, regardless of where, how, or with whom they roleplay.   

That said, I hope The Admin's post has cleared up your questions. If it didn't, I suggest you take a break for a little while, then come back and read (or re-read) the posts, Moderation and Style Guides with a clear head. If you still don't understand or you still disagree, there's nothing I can do to help you.

Our goal has always been to hold all contributors accountable for their articles and, while documenting Rhydin, to respect and protect the creative rights of writers, artists, and musicians.  It is unfortunate that you do not share that goal. 

RhydinWiki has always been envisioned as a neutral site.  We have never envisioned it as one to be "run by the Rhy'Din site-owners/admins".  Given the spite and hostility engendered by various people and situations, the site owners at Dragon's Mark, Mutual Endeavors, and Greater Realms are not, and will not, be setting policy here.  Their sage contributions to the wiki itself are invaluable; however, any expectation that special allowances or consideration should be given to someone just because he/she set up a web site is silly. 

I am beginning to think that you are unhappy because we have not allowed you to "run" this site.  I strongly encourage you to host your own wiki, come up with your own policies and style guides, allow anonymous users, and when you run into a problem, instead of dealing with individual registered users, you can use your "sort of zero tolerance policy and banhammer IPs that are doing stupid shit."  I suspect those who use Road Runner and AOL may be a little put out when they're inadvertently on the receiving end of your banhammer. 

I'm not telling you or anyone else who feels our policies are ill-considered or unreasonable to "piss off."  I'm telling you take all this negative energy of yours and direct it into something positive instead of complaining about how someone else's site is run.  Again -- if you think you can do a better job, quit bitching and just do it.  Otherwise, agree to disagree and move on.

If "discussing disagreement" and rehashing arguments is a productive use of your time, good for you. It's not a productive use of my time.

[SLWatson]

First, statements like "I'm sorry, did I offend you with that?" are getting a little personal.  The smarm is uncalled for, so watch your tone.

If I were getting personal, believe me, you would know.  I haven't had any problems thus far making it clear what I think of people, conduct or otherwise, and I certainly wouldn't make any exceptions.  You seemed offended.  In context, with other things you've posted, I think that it was not unreasonable of me to ask if I had, indeed, offended you somehow with my remarks about the whole 'creative property' thing.  And to clarify yet again why I made them, and perhaps why I'm rather sick of having to defend my position on it.  I've also complimented you repeatedly on your copyright notices, at least once within my memory to you yourself, and to others as well.

Tell me, sincerely and honestly, that no part of that statement of yours was born from your already posted feelings on that subject.  And then you can counsel me on my tone.

I am going to take a moment to explain something to you.

Do not presume you have any right, at any point, to order me to do anything.  If I really wanted to insult you, I certainly would have.  If I really thought you were somehow an evil individual, or unreasonable, I would have outright stated that.  Instead, I PMed you with my concerns.  You chose to post your response here.  As I said, very well.

If you'd like to tell me to watch my tone, then perhaps you will take it in context when I tell you to watch your conduct.  I've made, if not a perfect effort then a genuine one, to be as polite, respectful and dedicated as I humanly can be to this ideal and project.  I decided to speak with you about worries I had, that others have shared; I was polite through privately and now publicly.  But let me make something crystal clear to you, and I would very much like you to think about it before responding:

I don't care if it's your site, your domain, your forums or not.  That gives you no power to tell me to 'watch my tone.'  You are not my mother, my father or anyone in any position that I consider to be an authority over me.  It would do very well for you to remember that in the future, so that we don't end up in a flame war.  Because, frankly, very few things piss me off quite so much as someone who doesn't know me trying to give me an order.  I might take that from friends.  I won't take it from someone I don't know, and who doesn't know me.  Put yourself in my shoes and ask if you'd tolerate that from anyone.  I don't think you would, so don't expect me to.

I hope I've made that just as abundantly clear as I have my position on things.

This, of course, doesn't mean you can't say the words.  You may consider this the response: "When your conduct is perfectly flawless, then we can perhaps discuss mine.  Perhaps."

Thanks.

I've been advised by two attorneys on this.  Given that you're "fairly sure" about what my legal responsibilities are, I can only guess that the law must be different where you live.

All right.  As long as you've gone and consulted attorneys, I'll just take your word on it at face value and leave it at that.

The anonymous/registered user poll will run until November 21.  Complaining until then will not change the Evil Non-Democratic Tyrant Admin Minds.

Insert reference to the discussion on 'tone'.

If, at the time the polls ends, 75% of this site's members here decide that they want their IP address plastered all over the internet along with the inability to add new pages, we'll enable anonymous users.

Insert reference to the previously posted code snippet that shows that anon users can, indeed, create pages if enabled.

I may even consider removing their add limitations.  However, as it currently stands, the site continues to grow and 3/12 is not 75%.  The RhydinWiki remains open to Rhydin-related contributions from all registered users, regardless of where, how, or with whom they roleplay.

Good!  I did say that I was looking forward to seeing the consensus on this.  I'm not entirely convinced that it's a perfectly fair vote, but I'll hold my peace if you get your way on it.  At least you put it to a vote.  Kudos on that.  I just much prefer to explain why I think my position is an entirely valid one.

That said, I hope The Admin's post has cleared up your questions. If it didn't, I suggest you take a break for a little while, then come back and read (or re-read) the posts, Moderation and Style Guides with a clear head. If you still don't understand or you still disagree, there's nothing I can do to help you.

I've got fairly good reading comprehension skills.  If I've missed anything, it's more due to tiredness than anything else.  But I'll do that!  And I would strongly prefer, that while I go and re-read everything, that you perhaps re-read some of the things that have been said on this subject and others, as there seems to be some hiccup in communication here.  Or, perhaps, you should just think about the actual tones, instead of the perceived ones.

Our goal has always been to hold all contributors accountable for their articles and, while documenting Rhydin, to respect and protect the creative rights of writers, artists, and musicians.  It is unfortunate that you do not share that goal.

Really?  My goal was the see Rhy'Din have a wiki.  The rest, to me, had seemed to be more of the 'how' than the actual goal.  But thanks for that clarification, it's good to know exactly what the goals are --  It's unfortunate that this goal focuses far more on the 'how we do things' than the ideal goal of 'why we're doing this.'

RhydinWiki has always been envisioned as a neutral site.  We have never envisioned it as one to be "run by the Rhy'Din site-owners/admins".  Given the spite and hostility engendered by various people and situations, the site owners at Dragon's Mark, Mutual Endeavors, and Greater Realms are not, and will not, be setting policy here.  Their sage contributions to the wiki itself are invaluable; however, any expectation that special allowances or consideration should be given to someone just because he/she set up a web site is silly.

That was, originally, a mutual endeavor.  The idea was going to be a pooling of resources, manpower (for patrolling purposes) and the sharing of the userbase across the Rhy'Din relevant sites. It was meant as a springboard, not as the end-all and be all.  I'm very sorry I didn't say that better -- the idea was always just to start with our mutual resources, for the sake of having a solid foundation, and then grow from there.  Add in any Rhy'Din site that wants in.  It was never meant to be a 'We own this!' it was just the best way I could see to build the foundation for 'everyone owns this.'

I think it's rather silly, myself, not to use resources.  But I do disagree that you're entirely unbiased and neutral; you're no more perfectly neutral about anything than I am.

I am beginning to think that you are unhappy because we have not allowed you to "run" this site.

 

I'm beginning to think you're unhappy because you're used to being an unassailable authority.  I think you're unhappy because you're very used to people respecting your writing and character, and your connections that you've made, that you get genuinely offended when someone like me speaks out against your 'definitive, learned-from-experience' policies.  I think that, for the most part, your heart is big and in the right place, but you've gotten it into your head that somehow, your experience is more important than mine, or anyone else's.  See, there's a problem with assuming that (and you have repeatedly): Your experiences are not everyone's, nor are mine, and yours (and mine) are certainly not the definitive.

Which is another reason I'm so big on consensus.  None of us have a perfect vision.  We're all going on our own experiences.  The only reasonable, sensible way to come up with a well-balanced anything is to work together and pool those into something that encompasses more ground.

We can go 'round and 'round about this.  You can say you don't like my tone, I can say I don't like yours.  You can say that you think I wanna run the site, I can say I think you're so desperate to keep a grip on said site that you're not so willing as you say to listen to people speak about the policies.  You can say your experience is key to running this right, I can say mine is.

In the end, really, what does that do?

I strongly encourage you to host your own wiki, come up with your own policies and style guides, allow anonymous users, and when you run into a problem, instead of dealing with individual registered users, you can use your "sort of zero tolerance policy and banhammer IPs that are doing stupid shit."  I suspect those who use Road Runner and AOL may be a little put out when they're inadvertently on the receiving end of your banhammer. 

I've said it before, and will say it again.  I wanna make a go of it here.  But I feel that I'm getting railroaded somewhat, and that you're not listening to what I say, so much as how you think I'm saying it, or why.  I have listened to you.  If I hadn't, I never would have PMed and said, "Can we talk?"  As to policy; I'm sure I could come up with something more fair than the 'banhammer all".  Maybe you should read the rest of the conversation about perhaps just being able to flag certain IP addresses, as Wikipedia does.

I'm not telling you or anyone else who feels our policies are ill-considered or unreasonable to "piss off."  I'm telling you take all this negative energy of yours and direct it into something positive instead of complaining about how someone else's site is run.  Again -- if you think you can do a better job, quit bitching and just do it.  Otherwise, agree to disagree and move on.

Reference, yet again, discussion on tone.  Please, if you're gonna say something about mine?  Consider that maybe you should curb yours.  Disagreement =/= negative energy.  Or, I should say, maybe it does for you, but generally speaking, it doesn't for me.  I more consider disagreement to be disagreement.  Mostly, I think disagreement can be a good thing, though of late in the RP community (not you, the whole thing in general) I can see where you would consider it otherwise.

If "discussing disagreement" and rehashing arguments is a productive use of your time, good for you. It's not a productive use of my time.

Discussing things we won't agree on?  No.  Discussing things that may just be miscommunication and ego?  Absolutely, I think that's productive.  Discussing things that we're probably actually in agreement on, but just somehow not connecting it?  Yes, I think that's productive.

If you'd like me to go, it's no trouble.  I'll still enjoy reading your work, regardless.  Hopefully, someday I'll get to play off of you, or barring that, see your storylines in action.  But no, it's no problem for me to walk away from things.  I've rather proven that, too.  I just really, desperately, wanted this to end up being something that was a little more open.

This is where you might think of telling me that I don't get to speak for anyone, and to produce documented and notarized evidence of these unhappy people.  I won't.  But I have spoken to a few, some of whom like you very much, who are still nervous about the polices here.  Certainly, you can say that they should bring it up themselves.  I agree, but they haven't for their own reasons.  Maybe they just don't want to pick a fight, or maybe they don't want to lose your respect, or maybe they just don't want to sit down and type it all.  But they have said it to me, and I can understand where they're coming from.

I'm not making myself the final authority.  I'm just saying that I'm not the only concerned person.  I'm not the only one who's said something, either to you, or to someone else, about their hesitation.  If things were perfect, there might still be some hesitation.  But likely not quite so much as this.

I don't want to go around with you on this.  In the end, it's your site.  You'll run it however you see fit, and there's not a thing anyone can do about that if you don't allow them to.  That's okay.  In the end, it's still not always a bad thing to have dissenting opinions.  Likewise, you have every right to ignore them.  If this bothers you, then ignore mine.  Believe me, I won't take offense.  I'm offering them in the spirit of trying to come to an understanding and to bring up concerns, some of which I still have.  Not to pick a fight, or flood anything with 'negative energy'.

So, there is your agreement to disagree.  My opinions on some things stand, and I feel they are reasonable.  If you don't, it's your prerogative to ignore them.  You have my blessing.

Admin: I'll get back to you, if and when I have more time and after I have taken her advice to walk away for awhile.  Thanks for the post, and certainly I'll revisit it later.

[Lilithiel]

Great flounce, I give you 4 shiny gold star stickers for that one and a silver star sticker for telling Alysia off on her own site.  POWAH TO THE PEOPLE!! THROW OFF YOUR OPPRESSORS MAH BROTHERS AND SISTERS!! THEY ARE TRYING TO HOLD YOU BACK ON THE INTARWEBZ BUT THEY AIN'T THE BOSS OF YOU!

But yeah, you're not being persecuted here, so calm down, right?  And threatening to flame people on the intarwebz is like announcing you compete in the special olympics.  But GG and thx for the LOLz.

Alys/Admin if I am outta line here you can of course give me a vacation from the wiki/forum or whatever your guideline is until I learn to behave like a civilized and sociable ape instead of embarassing society, but yeah... sorry, this is great stuff.  Better than RP even. 

[Alysia]

Wow.  Steff, yeah... I’ve explained my position several times.  You’ve explained your position several times.  It hasn’t changed.  You don’t have anything new to suggest, so I really, really don’t need you to explain it again. 

Please understand this: just because I don’t agree with you does not mean I am not listening to you.  I have listened to your opinions.  I comprehend them and have considered them. I just don’t agree with them.  I understand you don’t agree with me. I’m okay with that. Apparently you aren’t.

Threatening a flame war for a moderator pointing out that you need to watch your tone? Do you really think that will get you anywhere with me?   If you are going to continue to have personal you’re-not-the-boss-of-me issues with a forum moderator telling you when you’re treading on unstable ground, this is not the site for you.

Dissenting opinions are allowed here as long as they develop a discussion and are constructive.  Nothing new has been added to this discussion, and you are being far from constructive.  This forum will host neither flame wars nor unconstructive gripes from people who are angry or unhappy because they are not getting their way.   This is not a rant site.

Steff, I am telling you this as a member of this community: Knock it off. You’re trolling now, and you’re out of line. 

I am telling you this as a moderator/administrator here: I may temporarily lock this thread if it degenerates further. If you have something new and constructive to offer to the discussion, your response will be welcomed.  Otherwise, you need a vacation from this site, and whether that vacation is voluntary or not is going to be up to you.

If you have something to contribute to the wiki, do so.  If you’re looking for a new place to fight, go away.

I've posted our Community Guidelines.  They are not up for debate.   If you have constructive suggestions, you may voice them, but as always, that’s not a guarantee of any changes.

[Ehzoterik]

You have what, eleven members here?  I don't think two out of eleven really is that small a minority.  I will venture to say, I have spoken to two more who hesitate to contribute here and join because of the site-rules thus far.  Certainly, of course, it's your site.  You've made it abundantly clear above.  You can tell us all to piss off at any point.  But, generally speaking, it's not entirely wise to say that two out of eleven (perhaps three) plus at least two more potential contributors are that small a minority on thus far, this small a site.

I have spoken to three.  Currently there are three people that I know of absolutely who are reluctant to contribute to this resource because of the site-rules.  This may not seem like such a big deal, but here's the thought that kept me up all night tossing and turning:

Every week I compile a newsletter known as Ubique's Weekly.  In that newsletter there is a section titled "In Other News..." which details single paragraphy synopses of specific characters and what those characters were known to have done in play during the previous week.  For this section of the newsletter, I have consistently kept what I have labeled a "character template."  This template was constructed to allow me to browse through every known character name and screen name that has ever been part of UW to see if perhaps it can jog my memory into remembering that I was witness to some activity.  This list is also alphabetized and preformatted so that I do not have to do too muce extra work compiling the newsletter week to week.

Why do I mention this?  As I said, there are at least three definite people that I know of who are reluctant to contribute to this potentially glorious resource.  (This is not said with sarcasm.  I truly do believe that this wiki has a lot of potential and become a role-playing icon, of a sort.  Perhaps as big, if not bigger than, Dragon's Mark.)  I was originally told that this wiki would be done in the spirit of Mutual Endeavors, and currently I feel as if it is not being governed that way at all.

It is a well-known fact that many role-players play more than one character.  These role-players are also known to have built and organized many infamous if not famous groups and organizations.  Of the three people that have confirmed to me they are not at all interested in contributing to this project unless the rules change to allow them to give permission to other people to post for them, which is absolutely within their human rights to do so, I can tell you this:

The Rhydin Wiki is missing out on at least:

• 25 definite Character Contributions, played by a small group of people who are uncomfortable with the certain definitive rules.
• 23 Character Contributions, played by a small group of people who are certainly not interested in registering and contributing on their own, but may be willing to give permission to other editors to do so for them.
• At least 30 Character Contributions, played by a small group of people who are missing in action or otherwise no longer active in role-play.  People who may, if I can contact them, also give permission for their content to be posted for them.
• At least 10 Character Contributions, played by a single individual I have heard no comment from concerning this matter as to whether or not registration will be done and content added.
• An approximate 5 to 10 other contributions (if not more), which consist of but are not limited to family groups, organizations, locations, and RP definitions to be added to the library.

Perhaps more.  The first two are certainties.  The remaining three are only speculations I can make, but based on logic and how well I know the parties involved.  You can only take my word on this, as I am certain that none of the people I indirectly mention are likely to respond to this post.  They are likely not going to register, let alone read this board, unless I link them to it directly.

My entire problem with this entire issue is the fact that we are listed as wiki editors.  In real life, authors give permission to editors to publish their work for them.  Naturally, they retain all rights to their intellectual property.  It is not my intention, nor do I think it is the intention of any of the other present and accounted for registered editors, to take credit for their work.

The RhydinWiki itself is truly open, democratic, and collaborative, encompassing the entire spectrum of Rhydin-related roleplaying. There are no restrictions on who may contribute, as long as they register.  The reasoning for requiring contributors to engage in the simple act of registering at the site has already been explained ad nauseam.

This ruling is the first to contradict itself.  "There are no restrictions..."  This is an untrue statement with its following clause of: "...as long as they register."  It says, and likely should be rewritten to say: "The only restriction we have is that those who wish to contribute any content must register to this forum."  That is what is benig said and I do not approve.

Ghost Writing will not be allowed for personal articles.  I have no intention of allowing one or two people to be excepted from this just because they have friends who trust them to do so or a reputation in the community.  This site is neutral.  I'm not playing favorites. What applies to one, applies to all.

If you want to "ghost write" or otherwise publish someone else's non personal article for the Rhydin Wiki, feel free to do so.  Just make sure you give credit to the original author(s) and include the appropriate CC license.

This is the second to contradict itself.  It can be summarized to say: "Ghost writing will not be permitted at all, unless you want to."  Which really makes no sense at all.

I reiterate that we are editors.  I very much like the title of "wiki editor."  It implies that I am not necessarily the originator of content being used, whether directly quoted and cited or paraphrased.  It also implies that I know what I'm doing, and that I have no intention of abusing my power.  Which I do not.

My thought on this entire wiki resource was that it would be used to compile all the known information relative to Rhydin into one concise database.  I like to think of it like an ezine, or standard magazine or anthology.  We are the editors.  The authors are out there.  There may be two admins, but why should only the admins have the authority to post content from third-party sources?

Authors and editors need to have a rapport with one another.  Most editors form lasting relationships with the writers they work with.  They know them by name and sometimes even know personal things about them.  They also understand that writers, by nature, are reclusive and paranoid sorts of people.

And now that I've lost my train of thought, as well as think I've covered everything I've wanted to, I'm done.  For now.

[Lilithiel]

Hey, no offense, but tossing and turning over a RP website or signing up for it is not a good sign, I mean I when I have too much caffeine in the afternoon I have that problem, or like when my mom died, or when my family gets sick I do a lot of tossing and turning at nights, but ...  websites...  Camomile tea works good.  Or peanut butter and honey sandwiches.  I think you're reading WAY too much into that whole thing, wiki editor  to me just means someone who signed up and can change what the wiki pages say, that's it... it could say Role Player or Toast Eater or Paper Clipper, it's just a forum membergroup... that's all O.o  I also think letting people work TOGETHER on the same topics on RhyDin RP stuff is totally a mutual endeavor, mutual being working together by people with something in common, in this case RP in RhyDin being what's in common, endeavor being the work.  Kinda rules-lawyering here, though.  Can I drag ya over to the other topics in the wiki talk folders so we can get those fleshed out? ^_^

[Ehzoterik]

Hey, no offense, but tossing and turning over a RP website or signing up for it is not a good sign, I mean I when I have too much caffeine in the afternoon I have that problem, or like when my mom died, or when my family gets sick I do a lot of tossing and turning at nights, but ...  websites...  Camomile tea works good.  Or peanut butter and honey sandwiches.

Gross and double gross.  It wasn't just the site that kept me tossing and turning, and it's not an uncommon affliction.  Ideas, period, keep me awake at night.  I can't shut off my brain when I want to.  And yes, I've considered looking into prescription sleep aids, but I really don't want to have to rely on them.  It's my opinion that it's the curse of a writer, dreamer, and active imagination.  Three united parts of myself that I don't want to get rid of.  Ever.

I also think letting people work TOGETHER on the same topics on RhyDin RP stuff is totally a mutual endeavor, mutual being working together by people with something in common, in this case RP in RhyDin being what's in common, endeavor being the work.

Agreed.  I just do not feel that it should be a required necessity for people to have to register if they do not want to.  Especially considering the fact that I have been given permission to post content articles by specific individuals.  This is what I have issue with.  Permission was given to me.  I fail to see why that is a problem.  It is the personal preference of the individuals in question that they do not want to register and do want me to put articles up for them.  They are not comfortable with either compromise that has been offered, IP tracking anonymous permissions and submitting to the administrators instead.  They are comfortable with me working for them.  A select few.

Can I drag ya over to the other topics in the wiki talk folders so we can get those fleshed out? ^_^

All in due time.

[Alysia]

Ehz, your rewording of  "The only restriction we have is that those who wish to contribute any content must register to this forum."  is definitely clearer.  Thank you.  I understand you still disagree with it, regardless of wording.  I still believe that it is not unreasonable to require people to register for this wiki if they want to contribute to it, and I’m not going to have that out yet again.  I’m leaving a decision and potential final wording on this up to the poll, and I expect it to be dropped, one way or the other, after the poll is concluded.

The RhydinWiki itself is intended to, has, and will continue grow with cooperative contributions from several different roleplaying communities working together.  Rhydin itself was created and added to over the years through the efforts of thousands of roleplayers.  That is a mutual endeavor, and that is how the wiki itself should be viewed..

The administration of this site is *not* a mutual endeavor.  I understand there are some people who feel it should be operated by the site owners or admins of other Rhydin-related websites.  That will not be happening.  I have fielded concerns from several people who question the ability of various Rhydin site owners to remain civil or impartial -- and those people have not registered here out of the perception that those site owners are or will be the policy makers here and will attack their contributions. 

I’ve had to say this too many times – while we welcome suggestions, the policies of this site will not be administered or decided by committee.   If you can’t agree with that and it remains a source of unhappiness or stress for you, you should probably you turn your efforts toward a project you can really support.

As for the term “Wiki Editor” ? Please don’t read too much into that. Wikipedia’s own definition notes: ”Every contributor to Wikipedia is called an editor.”  Everyone with the Wiki Editor tag has the ability to “edit” the Wiki.  We are also all “editors” in that we are mutually “editing” each other’s contributions to the Wiki: we can fix grammar, punctuation, syntax; we can mutually discuss and come to a consensus on content revisions and clarifications. It’s more apt to say Wiki Contributor, and perhaps we should change the name of the membergroup so as to avoid confusion.

Ghost Writing will not be allowed for personal articles.  I have no intention of allowing one or two people to be excepted from this just because they have friends who trust them to do so or a reputation in the community.  This site is neutral.  I'm not playing favorites. What applies to one, applies to all.

If you want to "ghost write" or otherwise publish someone else's non personal article for the Rhydin Wiki, feel free to do so.  Just make sure you give credit to the original author(s) and include the appropriate CC license.

This is the second to contradict itself.  It can be summarized to say: "Ghost writing will not be permitted at all, unless you want to."  Which really makes no sense at all.

That doesn’t contradict itself. It refers to two separate types of articles, one which does not allow ghost writing and one which does.  Take another look at the Moderation Guide.  There are 1) Personal Articles (character and organization pages) and 2) Everything else. 

That means:

1) Personal Articles (Character or Organization pages) are the only things you cannot ghost write.

2) If you want to add someone else’s article on anything else (Library, Events, Locations), go for it.  Just remember to credit them for it.
 
While that quote from me is not internally inconsistent, it does contradict the Moderation Guide as regards Personal Articles – bad Eve! 

The Moderation Guide still allows you to add someone else’s Personal Article as long has you have been granted express, written and public permission on the Rhydin Wiki forums to do so.    While we’ve had some short discussions about a basic consent/release form for this, the current wording essentially allows ghost writing, with the caveat that the person you're writing for has to post their consent for you to do so. 

I’m going to defer changing that wording until the results of the Anonymous or Registered User poll. (If people decide anonymity is the way to go, the Moderation and Style Guides will need to be completely reworked anyway.)  If people decide registered users are the way to go, we'll investigate ways of ensuring that people who post for anonymous others really do have permission to do so and that those anonymous others can retain their privacy.  The issues there are legal ones (not control ones), and I'll bug my attorney. K?

In the interim, if someone wants to register here and make a post saying, SM can post about my character/my guild/my family/other “Personal Article”, I have no problem with that - ghost write to your heart's content. But your friends will have to register and post permission.  And that, again, is a discussion we've already had.   

[Ehzoterik]

Ehz, your rewording of  "The only restriction we have is that those who wish to contribute any content must register to this forum."  is definitely clearer.  Thank you.

My pleasure.  I try to keep an eye on things like that.  It's the inner editor in me.  I'll likely continue to contribute suggested rewordings in the future.

I understand you still disagree with it, regardless of wording.  I still believe that it is not unreasonable to require people to register for this wiki if they want to contribute to it, and I’m not going to have that out yet again.  I’m leaving a decision and potential final wording on this up to the poll, and I expect it to be dropped, one way or the other, after the poll is concluded.

I will also continue to disagree.  I have listed reasons above.  There is an approximate 100 possible articles that could be contributed to this database, at least, if it were permissible for me to add them according to your rules.  As I have said: people have given me permission.  It is unlikely that the subject will be dropped, though.  There are other various articles I could contribute that do not fall under the acceptable guidelines of this resource.  See also the discussion on guilds and dice-use.

The RhydinWiki itself is intended to, has, and will continue grow with cooperative contributions from several different roleplaying communities working together.

Only if every possible form of contribution is considered and accounted for.  I am sorry to say that it is now confirmed that at least six players that I know of will not be contributing because of the definitive ruling that they must register themselves.  It is possible that other players will not have a problem with this and will sign up to add their content accordingly.  But in the long run, eventually you will run out of information to share because of the people who value their anonymity and put their trust only in people who are not administrators.  Of course, this could be solved if you made me an administrator, I suppose, but I don't want that and neither do you.  Neither do some other people, according to what you alluded to below.

The administration of this site is *not* a mutual endeavor.  I understand there are some people who feel it should be operated by the site owners or admins of other Rhydin-related websites.  That will not be happening.  I have fielded concerns from several people who question the ability of various Rhydin site owners to remain civil or impartial -- and those people have not registered here out of the perception that those site owners are or will be the policy makers here and will attack their contributions.

Foolish paranoia.  There is a distinct difference between wiki content, articles and contributions, and heated forum discussions.  Admittedly, some of the discussions held on the ME forums are heated and attacks have been made.  But when it comes to the facts concerning fictional worlds and peoples, that's just silly.  Why would anyone attack someone for posting a simple and factual synopsis?

I’ve had to say this too many times – while we welcome suggestions, the policies of this site will not be administered or decided by committee.

Certainly you welcome suggestions.  And yes you have said this too many times.  I have made a suggestion recently that has not at all been addressed.  Not even so much as a "thank you for sharing this idea."  Please look at the thread appropriate for making content suggestions.  I offered one.

2) If you want to add someone else’s article on anything else (Library, Events, Locations), go for it.  Just remember to credit them for it.

I ask again: If permission has been given to me to post this content for them (characters and organizations), how is it any different than if they give me permission to post events and locations?  Locations are also personal.  Take the Rambling Rose Tavern, for example.  I have spoken to the creators of this environment and made the same offer.  I was informed, at the time, that they are willing to sign up and post the content themselves.  But under your guidelines, it is not an organization nor a character, and therefore is free reign for anybody else to contribute content about, regardless of the fact that the creators would be vehemently against such a thing.  It's their baby.  They created it.

So.  What's the difference?  So long as I credit the people who created them, or at least make it abundantly clear that these characters and organizations are not of my own imaginative design...  Then of course there are the characters I did create but gave to other people to play for me.  Who, then, has the authority to post content articles?  However, it still stands that permission was given to me, and I still must ask what the difference is.

The Moderation Guide still allows you to add someone else’s Personal Article as long has you have been granted express, written and public permission on the Rhydin Wiki forums to do so.    While we’ve had some short discussions about a basic consent/release form for this, the current wording essentially allows ghost writing, with the caveat that the person you're writing for has to post their consent for you to do so.

Meaning, if I'm understanding this clearly, that these people are still required to register to this forum, when in fact they are not comfortable doing so.  I still suggest that the release form be made publicly accessible so that instead of needing to register for the site, permission can be anonymously emailed to the site administrators.  And by anonymously: I mean, only you two select administrators will know who the people are behind the characters and the general John Q. Public will not.

But then, in that understanding... These people will also be required to submit to you a list of their characters.  Or fill out a new release form for every single individual one and email you from a dozen and one different addresses, which may also be AOL screen names that are periodically recycled (deleted at some point to be later restored at another).

Now: I am perfectly comfortable with the requiring of an emailed release statement, but to other people that just seems like too much work.  Most of the people I know just want to play.  They don't want to have to worry about the technicalities of legal obligations and whatever else have you.  And even on DM, rumor has it that most people feel honored and privileged when stuff that they helped create or created themselves are even remotely mentioned.  Such as earning a spot in the Oracle or the Gossip GangSTAR.

But your friends will have to register and post permission.  And that, again, is a discussion we've already had.   

Then I regret to inform you that that will never happen.  They have already told me their thoughts on this matter.  They are uncomfortable registering one, let alone the dozens of, name necessary in order for this permission to be made public and absolutely verifiable.

If you can’t agree with that and it remains a source of unhappiness or stress for you, you should probably you turn your efforts toward a project you can really support.

Very well then.  Good luck with your mutual endeavor.  You, here, is plural.  I speak also on the behalf of other people who, as previously mentioned, do not wish to register here to speak their own thoughts and concerns.  Since, obviously, their opinions will be pointless.

I’m going to defer changing that wording until the results of the Anonymous or Registered User poll. (If people decide anonymity is the way to go, the Moderation and Style Guides will need to be completely reworked anyway.)  If people decide registered users are the way to go, we'll investigate ways of ensuring that people who post for anonymous others really do have permission to do so and that those anonymous others can retain their privacy.  The issues there are legal ones (not control ones), and I'll bug my attorney. K?

On that: I still say that both should be the way to go.

[Alysia]

Despite continuing arguments, the issue of "Anonymous Users" or "Registered Users" will not be settled until the poll is over on Nov 21 -- and essentially, the result of that poll is tied to a lot of other decisions.  If you don't have anything new to add, let it go and wait.

Ehz, I can not think of any way to possibly make this more clear: We will continue to consider suggestions.  We have asked for and will continue to ask for and accept input and discussion on all sorts of policies and guidelines.  If you don't like the policies and guidelines we ultimately come up with, that's too bad.  You can either accept it and work with us, or you can take off and work on your own thing.  With your notoriety and all these potential contributors who refuse to register here and trust only you, I expect your take on a similar project would be extremely prolific and successful.

By the way -- all these people who want to contribute but don't want to register here?  I have heard from no one directly.  My email and AIM and PM boxes at DM and ME are all open, if someone not here has something to say. 

I hate responding via snip as it's a usually considered a nitpicky way to start a flame, but you did courteously pose several good points that I wanted to address individually. 

Certainly you welcome suggestions.  And yes you have said this too many times.  I have made a suggestion recently that has not at all been addressed.  Not even so much as a "thank you for sharing this idea."  Please look at the thread appropriate for making content suggestions.  I offered one.

Your category suggestion was posted only 5 days ago, and I read it then, my dear.  I wasn't aware you wanted an immediate response and I hope that you don't think I'm inclined to split-second decisions like that. I actually do give these things a lot of thought.  Seriously. Plus I have a job, a family, a NaNoWriMo project, and regular RP occupying my time, too.   Assuming you wanted an answer tonight, Admin and I talked about it in connection with the previous discussion and will be making "Species" a sub category in "Characters". Fab idea.

I was informed, at the time, that they are willing to sign up and post the content themselves.  But under your guidelines, it is not an organization nor a character, and therefore is free reign for anybody else to contribute content about, regardless of the fact that the creators would be vehemently against such a thing.  It's their baby.  They created it.

 

My gut response to that was -- if they don't want anyone else to contribute content about it, why do they want it on a wiki?  Why not just leave it on a personal web site?

But then I thought about how I'd feel if someone went in and edited the entry on Dark Lake to say something like, "There is a block of high rise luxury condos on the island in the middle of the Dark Lake and a four lane highway along the shore which is occasionally invaded by a group of New Kids on the Block lookalikes."  Er, not?  I'd be irritated.

So, we do need to work out more policies on this.   This so totally deserves a topic of its own.  Oh wait... there is a topic already - Location Template.  Again -- this is a topic where we are requesting your suggestions and input.

I still suggest that the release form be made publicly accessible so that instead of needing to register for the site, permission can be anonymously emailed to the site administrators.  And by anonymously: I mean, only you two select administrators will know who the people are behind the characters and the general John Q. Public will not.

This is something that depends on the poll results, so I'm afraid you won't get a firm answer on this until sometime after November 21, when the poll ends.  In retrospect, I wish I'd set a shorter span on the poll, but I'd rather give everyone the opportunity to weigh in than have someone get left out on such a volatile issue. 

Anyway, the release form is really short and simple and is couched in layman's terms.  The way it's written, it definitely won't require an email from every single screen name you've ever owned and could be done all in one email.  It will not require your real name -- your email address will suffice.  It will definitely be made publicly and easily accessible, if that's what we decide to do.